Universal's Epic Universe General News & Discussion

[DarkMetroid567]

Theoretically its not, it opened with more rides and attractions than most other major theme parks in Orlando did besides IOA pretty much. They just need to get the capacity and reliability up on the existing attractions. One more potter ride would definitely help a lot although.

I think it’s just a very different market than the world that IOA/DAK/DCA opened in. I bet those parks would be Epic-level crowded today (and thus horrifically underbuilt) even with their initial flaws.

 

[Mad Dog]

The market was there to fill Epic to a fairly high capacity attendance. But Universal didn't build anywhere near enough capacity
to fill that demand. Thus, they've limited their revenue a lot by being too shortsighted. Even if the operational end wasn't suffering
from longer lasting breakdowns than anyone would expect, capacity would still be inadequate. So now they have the double
whammy of inherent low capacity and inadequate maintenance/tech performance. Potter ended that mature Orlando market
concept and social media elevated demand much more than the AK/MGM/IOA era. It's a new world and Universal executives
misjudged, building an incomplete park when a complete park would have raked in the revenue.
Universal had the hot IP's. But corporate screwed up and underbuilt. I'd guess, if they could do it over, they would have built a better,
more complete, guest trap.

 

[UNIrd]

They also need to add a small flats/attractions like Islands did in the year or so after its opening (Storm Force and Flying Unicorn). Anything to soak up crowds, especially if it rains/bigger rides go down.

Surprised they didn't learn from this and aren't pushing have similar quick capacity fixes in play for later this year. But with no movement on that front so far, doesn't look like they'll pull an IOA 2.0.

 

[DarkMetroid567]

Tbh, I’m not so sure they misjudged the demand would be popular, but I think they were just very optimistic with the ratio of quantity + quality they decided on.

Universal probably spent at least 7 billion and I think that reflects very well in the quality of the park, and there’s no chance they wanted to spend more — hence why I think the IOA-esque capacity increases aren’t happening.

But you have to wonder just how that focus on “quality” has permanently changed things for Epic. Universal no doubt spent hundreds of millions on development for Mine Cart Madness (an operational failure and in my opinion, a not very good ride) and Battle at the Ministry (another operational headache that aspired to be better than Rise but, to most, did not succeed). And as *incredible* as Monsters turned out, it will likely not be a huge draw to Epic and won’t ever average more than a 20 minute queue for the remainder of its life. Hypothetically, would you sacrifice one or more of these attractions for capacity?

 

[Mad Dog]

Tbh, I’m not so sure they misjudged the demand would be popular, but I think they were just very optimistic with the ratio of quantity + quality they decided on.

Universal probably spent at least 7 billion and I think that reflects very well in the quality of the park, and there’s no chance they wanted to spend more — hence why I think the IOA-esque capacity increases aren’t happening.

But you have to wonder just how that focus on “quality” has permanently changed things for Epic. Universal no doubt spent hundreds of millions on development for Mine Cart Madness (an operational failure and in my opinion, a not very good ride) and Battle at the Ministry (another operational headache that aspired to be better than Rise but, to most, did not succeed). And as *incredible* as Monsters turned out, it will likely not be a huge draw to Epic and won’t ever average more than a 20 minute queue for the remainder of its life. Hypothetically, would you sacrifice one or more of these attractions for capacity?

Monsters has huge capacity. Major reason for its short lines......Main reason budget hit that level is they paused too long in lieu of
covid recovery and thus construction inflation hit hard.
I remember the early talks here on Epic. Most everyone thought the attraction level would be in the high teens or low twenties.
When @Disneyhead said it was only going to be in the 12 to 14 vicinity, people were really taken aback. Both Shanghai and Beijing
were built with more capacity. Bottom line, demand was there and they underbuilt. Someone can't count. A bad business decision, and
it doesn't take hindsight to see that. It was always right there in their faces if they'd look at the potential numbers. Even if everything was running
smoothly at a theoretical capacity level, you couldn't put 35,000 to 40,000 plus people in the park, instead of the 15,000 to 25,000 they now have.

 

[DarkMetroid567]

Monsters has huge capacity. Major reason for its short lines......Main reason budget hit that level is they paused too long in lieu of
covid recovery and thus construction inflation hit hard.
I remember the early talks here on Epic. Most everyone thought the attraction level would be in the high teens or low twenties.
When @Disneyhead said it was only going to be in the 12 to 14 vicinity, people were really taken aback. Both Shanghai and Beijing
were built with more capacity. Bottom line, demand was there and they underbuilt. Someone can't count. A bad business decision, and
it doesn't take hindsight to see that. It was always right there in their faces if they'd look at the potential numbers. Even if everything was running
smoothly at a theoretical capacity level, you couldn't put 35,000 to 40,000 plus people in the park, instead of the 15,000 to 25,000 they now have.

Definitely — though it looks like the plan for Epic has always been a pretty low number of attractions, I think the Covid budget increases probably killed any chance of post-opening relief like IOA.

I don’t disagree that Monsters is (1) popular and (2) high capacity, but I continue to be amazed at its existence. In my (no doubt incredibly unpopular) opinion, the short waits aren’t fully explained by the high capacity. I think there’s a real lack of demand + marketability. Yet they built one of the highest quality and best rides of all time. I just can’t help but feel like it shouldn’t exist.

 

[SeventyOne]

Theoretically its not, it opened with more rides and attractions than most other major theme parks in Orlando did besides IOA pretty much.

Having your "back-up" hopper options be MK and peak EPCOT and Pleasure Island is about the best thing a half-day park can hope for.

I don’t disagree that Monsters is (1) popular and (2) high capacity, but I continue to be amazed at its existence. In my (no doubt incredibly unpopular) opinion, the short waits aren’t fully explained by the high capacity. I think there’s a real lack of demand + marketability. Yet they built one of the highest quality and best rides of all time. I just can’t help but feel like it shouldn’t exist.

1) Very unforgiving ride system.
2) Never forget WDW arbitrarily raised the height limit on Stich because kids ostensibly big enough to ride were getting terrified. On Stich. A significant number of families with preteens are probably skipping this one.
3) Outside the hard-core online fandom, classic monster houses at HHN just do alright in terms of draw (even when a strong contender for house of the year). If HHN ticket-buyers aren't that enthralled with the IP, it's a lot to ask of gen pop tourists.

 

[UniversalRBLX]

The ride count at Epic Universe, as shocking as it sounds coming from me, is fine. The issue, outside of downtime, is that even at peak efficiency some of the rides weren't designed with high-capacity in mind. No reason why Donkey Kong, as cool as it is, was approved to operate at barely 1,000 guests an hour... when running the maximum amount of trains available and no downtime.

Curse of the Werewolf, designed and with the capacity D-ticket attraction, has to play a major role in a land with only 1 other attraction.
Dragon Racers' Rally ride system (even with dual sides) was a waste of resources for its low capacity and ultimate satisfaction level (what a ridicously short cycle time).

Ministry of Magic, once operating closer to its intended hourly capacity, will be just fine.

---
Opening the floodgates to Annual Passholders would not be the correct choice... but some of the dining locations are starting to close early on in the day (Das Stakehaus at 8, Mead Hall at 7:15, Le Gobelet 6:15)... so why not offer APs an after "x" PM access plan? I think most APs on here will be just fine visiting after 5PM.

 

[Parkscope Joe]

I disagree Epic is an incomplete park on a fundamental level. And the fact the single day ticket sales have remained strong isn’t a failure for UOR. Just because UOAPs aren’t available yet doesn’t mean it’s a failure.

 

[Mad Dog]

The ride count at Epic Universe, as shocking as it sounds coming from me, is fine. The issue, outside of downtime, is that even at peak efficiency some of the rides weren't designed with high-capacity in mind. No reason why Donkey Kong, as cool as it is, was approved to operate at barely 1,000 guests an hour... when running the maximum amount of trains available and no downtime.

Curse of the Werewolf, designed and with the capacity D-ticket attraction, has to play a major role in a land with only 1 other attraction.
Dragon Racers' Rally ride system (even with dual sides) was a waste of resources for its low capacity and ultimate satisfaction level (what a ridicously short cycle time).

Ministry of Magic, once operating closer to its intended hourly capacity, will be just fine.

---
Opening the floodgates to Annual Passholders would not be the correct choice... but some of the dining locations are starting to close early on in the day (Das Stakehaus at 8, Mead Hall at 7:15, Le Gobelet 6:15)... so why not offer APs an after "x" PM access plan? I think most APs on here will be just fine visiting after 5PM.

Yes, 'lack of capacity' is the primary issue. 'If' more of the attractions were Monsters like capacity, the number of attractions wouldn't be
as much of an issue. But, bottom line, the attraction capacity numbers never added up to a workable number, even if Ministry would be
close to their theoretical capacity, which it isn't. Even a couple of the smaller attractions like the Racers at Berk and the stupid
loading process of the Carousel are both more in the Meet and Greets number status, which is basically meaningless.
One point on the Darkmore land, which I've mentioned before....is that its location and size make it likely that it's easy to be missed
by more casual guests, kind of a bigger issue Diagon entrance problem. That entrance is a gem, but it's almost a 'hidden' gem. And, to
@SeventyOne fear factor of Monsters....yes for sure. That definitely could be too scary for many kids and even some squeamish adults.

The fact there's still decent ticket demand for Epic, even with so many disappointed guests and reviews, and hard to buy ticket policy,
just gives more credence to the huge demand that existed for the park in this era of high social media content. 'If' they would have
built this park with decent capacity and had better operational performance, there's little doubt they'd be getting double the attendance,
and revenue, they've had in these first nine months of 'official' operation. The demand was there, but the supply missed the target.
Even if they figure out all these breakdown issues, and they are widespread among most attractions, the capacity will still be woefully
inadequate. They ended up building a park for 5 or 6 million attendance when it could have met a demand for 9-11 million a year.

 

[Mike S]

The ride count at Epic Universe, as shocking as it sounds coming from me, is fine. The issue, outside of downtime, is that even at peak efficiency some of the rides weren't designed with high-capacity in mind. No reason why Donkey Kong, as cool as it is, was approved to operate at barely 1,000 guests an hour... when running the maximum amount of trains available and no downtime.

Curse of the Werewolf, designed and with the capacity D-ticket attraction, has to play a major role in a land with only 1 other attraction.
Dragon Racers' Rally ride system (even with dual sides) was a waste of resources for its low capacity and ultimate satisfaction level (what a ridicously short cycle time).

Ministry of Magic, once operating closer to its intended hourly capacity, will be just fine.

---
Opening the floodgates to Annual Passholders would not be the correct choice... but some of the dining locations are starting to close early on in the day (Das Stakehaus at 8, Mead Hall at 7:15, Le Gobelet 6:15)... so why not offer APs an after "x" PM access plan? I think most APs on here will be just fine visiting after 5PM.

Donkey Kong should’ve been Universal’s Big Thunder Mountain.

 

[JohnHammondsCane]

Do we have an idea of how many rides can be added by 2032, or other ways to increase capacity? I know @tommyhawkins had a great write up on potential options.

1. Obviously the work currently being done at Wizarding World
2. SNW expansion?

Would the Dark Universe expansion happen? Plot by Stardust?

My overarching question/concern being that Epic may be stuck for awhile at this capacity, right? Two rides will definitely help, but are we thinking rider throughput more like Monsters or DKMM? Outside of increased reliability of MoM, is there anywhere else to improve capacity? Seems like DKMM is what it is at this point, a fun family ride, with awful lines due to capacity issues

Maybe an unpopular opinion, but in the three times I've been to the park, I feel like Celestial Park is too big, if that makes sense. Maybe empty is a better descriptor. I'd bet that for most people, it's a pretty (but scorching hot) pass through area. Just feels like a waste of space in a park that is dealing with capacity issues.

 

[UniversalRBLX]

Do we have an idea of how many rides can be added by 2032, or other ways to increase capacity? I know @tommyhawkins had a great write up on potential options.

1. Obviously the work currently being done at Wizarding World
2. SNW expansion?

Would the Dark Universe expansion happen? Plot by Stardust?

My overarching question/concern being that Epic may be stuck for awhile at this capacity, right? Two rides will definitely help, but are we thinking rider throughput more like Monsters or DKMM? Outside of increased reliability of MoM, is there anywhere else to improve capacity? Seems like DKMM is what it is at this point, a fun family ride, with awful lines due to capacity issues

You can fit the following in expansion spots:

• Another Mario Kart-sized show building and another attraction in the expansion pad between SNW & Dark Universe.
• A dark ride at Dark Universe
• A large attraction in Ministry of Magic (along with a smaller sized area prev. reserved for hotel use).
• HTTYD has a relatively small area that can hold something (where the drones launch).
• The large expansion pad that can hold roughly two Ministry of Magic sized show buildings along with ample space for smaller attractions and theaters.

So this park has a long way to go, but I think prioritizing "simple" high-capacity attractions for the overall family should be prioritized.

Maybe an unpopular opinion, but in the three times I've been to the park, I feel like Celestial Park is too big, if that makes sense. Maybe empty is a better descriptor. I'd bet that for most people, it's a pretty (but scorching hot) pass through area. Just feels like a waste of space in a park that is dealing with capacity issues.

As it stands, I agree. However, once the trees grow and more daily entertainment is added, I think it'll be fine. Problem with Celestial is that I don't think there's enough entertainment throughout the day or shade structures.

Edit - to add, comparison between DAK & Epic Universe. Very similar in capacity and entertainment offerings (both have two shows with roughly the same number of capacity).

Main issue with Epic are the rides not operating efficiently. The Daily THRC/OHRC amount is the hourly throughput x the average operating day (incl. EPA).